Here's the friend's game:
I was initially confused cuz I thought that arrows suggested that was the only direction you could move the letter in.
I think he should run a timer too and track how fast you are.
Thoughts?
MrFixit aka Denny
P.S. That game is by the guy, Eric Sink, who did the original version of Winnable Solitaire.
I played it, and found myself simply following the arrows instead of trying to figure out words, so not very fun at this point.
I loved it, but I’m a sucker for word games. I played all extra games too, got 28, 22, 18, and 24 scores.
Only suggestion would be to add info to be able to compare those to something, as idk how I stack up or if those are good scores are not. But as it’s still new, “avg score” or “top scores” may be an addition he’s already considering for later.
But I like it a lot, it’s in the same vein as wordle or semantle for me. Maybe not so much semantle, but I like it abt as much, and I can spend a while playing each.
*edit- my bad, had missed it before but there are stats given.
Denny, I think it does mean that actually.
<> means it’s in same row but not same column,
^v means it’s in same column but not same row
and no arrows at all means it doesn’t go in that column or row.
Agree abt timer. Good idea
ps- a couple times I hit a letter to swap and it moved to wrong spot, and a couple times it didn’t move at all. The former only happened a few times and stopped when I got more cautious abt pressing carefully and firmly. The latter didn’t affect score. So overall was smooth enough for a new game. Tell your friend nice job
First game, 95% of the players solved it in fewer than 52 swaps
Fourth game: 0% of the players solved it in less than 17 swaps.
Not knowing they were actual English words made the initial play quite random.
The "adjacent swap" really isn't. Initially I was concerned I might block off acess to a cell.
The lack of rules was initially a bit frustrating, but then became a fun thing: what are the rules, what can I do.
I have this app on my android that is really interesting in that respect. What are the rules to make the word "here".
I'll play again. And suggest to friends.
I like it. Will add it to my list of daily plays (Wordle, Connections, Letter Boxed and Crosswordle).
Got in in 25 today. Not bad for never seeing it before.
It has some quirks -- three E's in marked as being in that row does not mean the all three are in the row; just one or more. Wasn't sure if they'd indicate when a letter was "home", but its background turns blue. It was good to find out early that they include plurals formed by adding an S (unlike Wordle).
Not sure I'll play every day, but it's a decent distraction.
Yeah, I needed better instructions on what the arrows meant. I'm getting the hang of it. I'd play more.
82% of players solved the puzzle is less moves. Then I read the instructions. This is a good brain teaser. I'll add it to my daily grey-matter-wake-up: Freecell, Wsolitaire, Wordle & Canuckle. Thank you.
Seems the double arrows suggesting the letter is in the right column and in the right row would dictate it was in the right spot? Why is that not correct?
@islebdave Here is how I understand it: For illustration’s sake, lets say there is an E with both arrows on it. What it means is that there is an E somewhere in that row and an E somewhere in that column. If that were the only E on the board, then it would therefore be in the correct spot and blue in color, as you mentioned. However, since the tile has the two arrows rather than being blue, that tells you that there must be at least one other E hanging around on the board.
Or put another way: The double arrows don’t tell you that *that* E is in that row and that column, only that *an* E is in that row and that column (the existence of this situation necessitating more than one E on the board).
If I'm misunderstanding, someone please correct me.
Ooo that was fun! Took me 33 swaps though, I’ll have to improve that! And add this to my Wordle/Canuckle/Jeopardy morning regime….to get my brain cells working in the morning! :)
Played all available games and I'm improving. Will add to my morning routine and see how it goes.
Spruce, where did you see that abt the percentages? I must’ve missed that, in which case my only suggestion is moot.
The rule box is on the right, so rules of play are there.
After looking at it for a sec, I checked that before making a move or else I prob wouldn’t have liked it as much, as with any game.
I think reason some letters are unmarked, and some aren’t clear as to how many belong in which column/row, such as the E’s Buzz mentions, is that then it’d be too easy. I think it’s a good idea he left some letters unmarked so we can focus on creating words from available letters rather than only following arrows, and good that if I were to move 3 A’s to a row it’d show they all can be moved to left/right even if there is only one A in row. It wouldn’t work otherwise, the idea being I need to think of a word that has available letters and at least 1 A somewhere within remaining spaces for row.
Kells- had to read that over for a sec but yea that’s correct, as long as you mean any E’s will work in that row and column, but pretty sure you do.
Edit: I already knew unmarked means not in that column & row, but wasn’t thinking. When you move an unmarked to a correct column/row, an arrow does appear if not a blue space, so I retract that bit abt leaving some unmarked.
I’d also like a harder version, with more letters. Because the words vertical as well as horizontal after a while it can get easier. More letters on some puzzles can solve that. And the timer Denny mentioned.
Hi folks. Word Box developer here.
So many interesting comments. I'll try to go through them a bit more carefully tomorrow.
For now, let's see if I can clarify a thing or two about the arrows.
Suppose you have an E with just a horizontal arrow. You know three things: (1) That square is NOT an E. (2) At least one of the other squares in that row IS an E. (3) None of the squares in that column are an E.
Yes, if there are three Es in that row, they all have the same arrow(s), but that tells you nothing about how many Es are in that row. However, it does tell you that all 3 of those squares are not Es, so in a 6x4 game, there are only 3 squares left, and one of them has gotta be an E.
Note in (3) above, the absence of an arrow is really important. The E mentioned above has no vertical arrow, so you know that column has no Es.
Similarly, a square with a W and no arrows is giving you quite a bit of information, because you know that there is no W anywhere in that row and no W anywhere in that column.
The description from kells about the double-arrow case is correct. It means the given letter is somewhere in that row, and ANOTHER of the given letter is somewhere in that column.
Thanks to all of you for taking the time to give the game a try and for sharing your feedback.
To start, I am not good at word type puzzles. That said, for the most part, I was mostly moving tiles around based on the arrows. In fact, this game could be made using symbols other than letters or numbers. Knowing that these are 6-letter English words only makes it a bit easier in deciding what two tiles to swap.
Idea! Make a version using blank tiles, only keeping the arrows. Now the game also incorporates a memory element, somewhat like the matching pair memory games children play.
Hey Eric,
A few things:
1. Fun game, I'd play more, but the limit of 4 a day limits that. I'd like to be able to access past days or some such. Now that I understand I wanna see if I can get my numbers down.
2. I got a repeated grid. I got two with MACAW across the top. Can you generate a lot of those grids? What's the total game space look like?
3. The 4th rule about the two arrows, maybe change the wording to make it clear that means "there's one in this column, and one in this row, they're not the same". I think it's reasonable to expect people to have to figure out basic rules but that one is confusing.
4. Run a timer and give a similar stat like "Your time: 3 minutes and 12 seconds. 32% of users finished in less time."
5. Needs some kinda popup or affirmation that you won. Just the button turning color isn't fulfilling enough. :-)
Edit: I'm not 1000% I got a repeated grid. Now that I think about it I was playing on 2 different devices.
I really like word puzzles, and this one is pretty good. My only real complaint is that some of the words are a bit obscure and some of the definitions are not common either. I like that there are extra puzzles to complete after the initial daily puzzle, please keep that feature.
Hey Eric, I love word games and can be picky abt them but I rlly like WordBox, you did a great job!
Before I got hooked on freecell I scoured the net since I was prob 13 for good ones. There was a time where things like “word whomp” and such were some of the only decent word games, and nearly all obnoxious with pop ups & ad interruptions. Things like wordle and semantle came through on that part, but I rarely sign into my times account out of laziness for my long password, ha, and semantle is a different animal altogether. This is a great game and I rlly enjoyed it.
Personally had no trouble at all understanding rules and liked some of the words being odd or rarely used, but I’m used to that being a staple with word games and honestly prob learned a few words that way. +I felt the letter turning blue for correct space was obvious enough, ala “wheel of fortune” vibes and an elegant way to show it. Look forward to playing more in future and seeing if you add more difficult levels, etc. Nice work!
ps- on my 4th game was able to make my first 3 or 4 moves correctly, which wouldn’t be able to happen if I hadn’t gotten a good grasp of letter movement already. Smooth &simple game idea
Wahoo! On my 3rd game today I didn’t make a single move wrong! Got it in 16 and top 2% 🎉
am now hooked 🫶
More tidbits:
Access to past days is a planned feature. The current "extra games" thing is something we did quickly just to provide at least a bit more than one a day.
The number of available puzzles is a function of box size and the input word list. We use the NASPA Word List (the one used for Scrabble tournaments in North America), but that results in a lot of obscure words. So for the main puzzle, we try to find puzzles that use more common words. For the extra puzzles, we are less strict about that, so you'll see some pretty obscure things in those.
Yeah, seeing a duplicate grid should be impossible (database constraint). But repeated words are possible, like seeing the same word in two puzzles in the same week, etc. Again, we try to avoid that, but it could still happen.
Harder/bigger puzzles: We sometimes throw a 7x4 or even a 6x5 puzzle into the extras. When restricting to commonly used words, the number of such larger puzzles gets small fast. But if we used the full word list, there are lots of them, and the resulting puzzles would be quite difficult indeed.
It is interesting that the puzzle can be solved without knowing any words, using just the arrows. We have several implementations of a bot that tries to solve puzzles. A bot that doesn't use any word knowledge tends to get worse scores, which matches my intuition from actual play.
Timer: Maaaaaybe. We're trying to keep the puzzle relaxing and low-pressure for most, while still allowing more "intense" users room to explore.
We're definitely working on ways to help folks be less confused and understand the arrows more quickly.
A timer would be a negative for me -- I am looking to relax while working my brain, not compete. If you start tracking scores beyond what you're doing now and/or adding a timer, you will see an influx hackers and bots that will pretty much ruin the game.
I played the main board again today with a slight improvement. I am strategizing how to use the information from the arrows. GoAdoptADog!'s post indicating that 2% of the players are solving in less than 16 moves means that one can used a lot of double hits (switch two letters into their final location in one move).
Clearly, this game is as much strategy as it is vocabulary.
Nicely done, Eric.
"indicating that 2% of the players are solving in less than 16 moves"
FWIW, any current 6x4 puzzle which can be solved in fewer than 16 moves is an unusual case. Most days, the best score is a bit higher than that. It is common for the best score to be 19 or 20, sometimes higher.
(Y'all showed a glimpse of interest in my baby, so now I'm going to show you more baby pictures than you care to see. Please pretend to be interested.)
One "problem" I'd like to fix is that scores for a given day cannot really be compared to any other day. Just in terms of the minimal number of swaps required, some puzzles are harder than others. This is because of the way we shuffle the letters.
One way to shuffle would be to start with the solution and then do exactly 12 swaps.
Obviously, the 12-swap shuffle approach would mean that every puzzle could be solved in 12 swaps by a Jedi or other supernaturally gifted individual. So every day we would have a baseline possible score of 12.
This is not the way we currently shuffle. Rather, we just throw all the letters into random positions, and continue to randomly rearrange them until the starting spot has no "blue" letters. On most days, this results in a configuration where even a Jedi would need more than 12 swaps, but this varies.
And that is an unhappy situation. All else equal, I would prefer that the score for any 6x4 puzzle would be a little more comparable to any other 6x4 puzzle.
So we've been experimenting with the 12-swap shuffle, but haven't yet used it for public games. Most folks like the game as it is, so I don't want to change to that approach without a better understanding of how much easier the puzzles would become. Obtaining this measurement has proven difficult. The game is deceptively simple. Heck, writing a bot that can play this game really well is a lot harder than I thought it would be.
So far I can confirm that the 12-swap puzzle does not ruin the game completely by making all puzzles trivial. It's still pretty hard, and a score of 12 from a non-prescient human player is going to be rare. But it does look like the average scores would be lower by a few swaps. We'll keep investigating this idea.
how about different length words in the same game (altho this contradicts the wordbox concept)
too easy to become prescient (eg solve in incognito window first)
why limit the number of games per day... just need a button for next game
[edit]
change shuffle to have fewest letters with arrows
maybe make the arrows optional... like 'Show Hints'
option to make it a bit more difficult where words are just randomly selected groups of letters
I love words, (clearly, as I’ve been known to use FC discussion to ramble all thoughts in my head-y’all should see my txts! a simple, “can you grab milk?” reads like a David Foster Wallace novel, lol) but even tho I’m partial to words &play lots of word games, the one I got in 16 swaps (today’s 3rd/ “puzzle B”) I managed a good chunk at start from using arrows alone.
I didn’t notice yday how helpful they can be at start! ..ie, if there are only 2 H’s, one with <> arrows 2nd row in 2nd box, and one with ^v 4th row 4th box, I realized an H must go on 2nd row, 4th box. It felt rlly satisfying to grasp that, like solving a mini math problem.
I like that it’s using both spatial logic/strategy as well as word knowledge, as Buzz said. I can’t rely on just word stuff alone, as with multiple vertical &horizontal options, a word that can fit could easily be another word that also fits.
Eric, not sure I understand abt the problem with daily scores being compared to other days?
If you mean simply that say, Fri. puzzle can’t be compared to Thurs. because Thurs is harder, I’m alright with that. With this, I’m not sure I rlly care at comparing scores for all puzzles overall, but rather how many got this specific puzzle in x amt of moves. Am I getting that right tho? If not, lmk.
Agree with you &Buzz that a timer isn’t necessary. Wouldn’t hate it, but it’s true it’d change vibe & I’d get anxious. +The one I got in fewest swaps I def had to look at for a few mins—with a timer I def would’ve flubbed. I also see now that some puzzles have more boxes than others, that’s good touch.
cellmate’s idea that no arrows could work is technically true but I feel like that’d also be a totally different game. +At start it’d be a bit of a free-for-all on swaps.
and just fyi, 12 step shuffle sounds like a fun dance. Or a fun card game. Idk but that needs to be the title of something, somewhere, at some point.
"incase" is not a word. You can have "encase" or "in case" but not "incase."
Also, I can’t speak with certainty on this, but re: many puzzles, you may still decide to limit to some degree. It depends and think it’d need some testers to gage, but I believe I read the wordle guys decided that giving more than 1 puzzle daily made some folks more quickly bored of game.
Still, one daily frustrated me so eventually found some guys site who built a version of it to help his young daughter build her vocab skills or something. He offered the games free to public and I played several at a time, swallowed them up for a few days, but can’t say I used his site a lot..so maybe there’s something to the limit idea. Tho 1 is too few for me and also runs risk of losing interest—haven’t wordled in a while
I like it. It would take me a while to figure out what a good score would be. I need to know how to feel about myself for the rest of the day otherwise, what's the point?
I'm back two days in a row, so I must like it. Are proper nouns like "Reno" going to be standard?
genie- wondered that myself when I got that word on board, but looked it up in my dictionary and is there as a variation of encase. Who knew? I’m pretty sure “word whomp” taught me some odd 3 letter words back in the day..
edit: I didn’t notice a “Reno” but surely that can’t mean Nevada brand. I googled and it’s in online dictionary as an informal definition of “renovation”, but ya, stills seems a bit slangy if that’s what it refers to. I just realized how tough it’d be to create a word game today with all the added slang in online dictionaries. Bet they’ll iron that out tho
Wow, I played all of yesterday’s and today’s puzzles without noticing that the columns spell words too. For some reason I was only looking at the rows in this respect. Guess this means I might do better tomorrow.
And thanks Eric for all the baby pictures! I, for one, welcome as many of them as you care to share. I think displaying the best possible score along with the player’s score and % beat would be interesting.
You mention your dissatisfaction with not currently having a way to compare scores day to day or from puzzle to puzzle with the same dimensions. Since we’re kind of all playing against the best possible score, could some sort of ranking system based on that be developed? E.g., this player, on average, solves puzzles 3.6 swaps above the best possible score? Don’t know if this would make sense or not, just throwing ideas around. Having a simple number as a way to compare my score on any given 6x4 puzzle to any other 6x4 puzzle is for me personally not something I feel I would need. And though I do agree with the sentiment that someone else brought up that introducing a scoring/ranking system will bring in the cheaters, I think it would still be fun to have.
I’ll also add my vote for either no timer or an optional timer. If a timer was there I’d personally probably be too nervous to even play, though I recognize I'm probably in the minority there.
Hi - This is a fun game - congrats to the developer. But...
I think it would be more fun without the arrows. Here's a mess of letters...sort them into 4 words.
It seems a bit arbitrary to have to figure out which row they should be in. For instance, I didn't have any correct letters yet and moved R2C5 into R3C5 and it lit up. If the row isn't constrained by other correct letters yet, then it should light up as long as it is in the correct column. Placement will be tougher once some of the letters have been solved, but in the beginning it seems like guessing to figure out which letter goes where.
The idea someone had to make it a grid that works in both directions seems like extra fun. Good idea.
Not a big fan of timers here, so please make that optional. I would enjoy a goal though to know if I played it well or missed the mark. Maybe like the way they have it in Letterboxed. Can you find the words in 25 swaps or less?
Overall this is a great game with a lot of potential.
thanks for letting us play
Mary
OK, let's see if I can catch up a bit.
Folks wanting the no-arrows option: Interesting. An early version of the game worked this way. Most folks liked it better with the arrow hints. We could consider bringing this mode back, but as an option.
Reno: All the words are in the NASPA word list, so if it's a proper noun, it is only in the list because it is ALSO a word. Note that the definitions of all the words can be shown at the end of the game by tapping the Words tap, in the lower right.
"not sure I understand abt the problem with daily scores being compared to other days": I just mean that it might be nice if the notion of "what is a good score" didn't vary so much from day to day. In Wordle, a 3 is always a good score, and a 6 is always a close call. Right now, if somebody says "I got a 22 in Word Box today", that might be a great score or it might not. This isn't a fatal flaw in the game. It just bugs me a little. :-)
"why limit the number of games per day": Because all the other word games are doing it. Peer pressure. :-)
Thanks again for all the comments. More later.
Mmcrane, but it’s not 4 words.
Words go up/down as well as across. So even with a 4x4 grid, with both vertical/horizontal words, you’d be wasting swaps early in. On verticals you may shoot for area, and it could be aoli, real, rail, aria, rial, etc.. So that’d be a different game without arrows, only words and not much strategy. And more swaps. Also, the arrows make it easier to figure out the beginning, which is the strategy bit. It’d actually be harder/ guesswork without them to get first swaps right. If you use arrows at start you can oft see a few moves, as with H example above.
But then again, that’s basically wordle, what you describe, but with vertical words added as well, and wordle is popular so I see the appeal. Idk I’d have to play it to know, but I do like the strategy bit as well so 🤷♀️ &idk what you mean by grid going both directions.. like backwards also? Is clever but to use only palindromes would vastly limit word options I’d think.
Eric, gotcha. I see what you mean with scores, but doesn’t bother me.
There's a different wordbox (like Boggle) for Android at the google playstore Also on Apple
Hi Eric, this is a very nice game. I got confused by the instructions stating that a letter with horizontal and vertical arrows is in the row and also in the column, as being in the row and in the column sounds like "in the proper place". Then I realized that this applies to multiple instances of a letter. I hate games with unnecessary timers :-)
Good game. Big room for improvement with me - and that's just what the brain loves! Great that we can move onto it right from the Freecell page. Thanks again, Denny.
Love it! Thanks for the new daily.
Love you guys.
I am still getting a high C it seems. How do you guys lower your swap count?
Probably a dumb question, but if a letter is in "this column" and "this row" (i.e., up/down AND right/left arrows), then how is this not the correct location?
The arrows mean that the letter in question is somewhere in that row and somewhere in the column, but not in the space currently occupied. If the letter were in the right place, it would be given a blue background.
Takes a bit of getting used to.
As a Wordle addict I like this game. I even got my wife interested. She was doing way better than me, until I noticed that she had figured out the columns make words too, which I had not......
If you like Wordle, try Cinqo (above top of page) which I did probably about 15 years ago at least.
MrFixit aka Denny
Denny, I lowered mine by using arrows on start.
I think once folks familiarize themselves with arrows they’ll not be so quick to suggest losing them, (esp in the freecell community where logic and strategy reigns supreme.)
If there’s only 2 of a letter, say F, with one at top of first few columns with <>, and the other towards bottom of a column with ^v, an F must go at intersecting box of the row and column the 2 Fs are on.
I try to solve as many on start using arrows, then move to likely words once I’ve worn that out, still using arrows tho primarily until I can’t. The game is more than word game, mostly logic or at least just as much, which is why I like it.
Ps-Eric, when I replied above abt non arrows being similar to wordle with verticals, I was trying to be polite to others, but realized it may sound impolite to you, as arrows are a big part of the game and what makes it unique from other up/down word games.
I think you’re likely looking for feedback on this game rather than ideas for a different game, which you’ve been very diplomatic abt, and want to clarify, that wasn’t my intent- I like the game as is and don’t think you should lose arrows. They add another layer of skill that sets it apart from other word games and as I said above, once players familiarize themselves more with game, they’ll prob agree and see their usefulness, as I think without them it’s still a fun game but is akin to offering “wheel of fortune” and suggesting no wheel. The arrows give it an extra quality. (&challenge.)
The only helpful feedback I can offer is I’m still getting a bit of stickiness on some swaps, with either wrong letter swapping or not moving at all, but generally stops if I’m careful to firmly press (I’m on touchscreen tablet) or make sure to not hit top of letter box when swapping. I’m sure that’ll all be ironed out tho and the concept is most important, which I think is elegant in that it’s simple and understated- nothing gauche or unnecessarily flashy or complex. Hope that remains too.
A bit awed by how guys like you and Denny create these things. Way over my head but enjoy seeing what can be accomplished.
I really, really like Word Box. I find some of the other comments in this thread ... amusing. Learning the subtleties of a new game is part of its allure. My first game was a disaster but I quickly learned the intricacies of the hints (arrows) and built a strategy of play - which continues to evolve. Consistent with some of the other commenters, Word Box is now part of my daily routine. NYT Crossword, Wordle, Connections, Freecell, Merriam-Webster Vocabulary. Thanks to Eric Sink for a great game. Thanks to you for including it here.